Based on current lineups can you honestly see the Dragons win a match?

12 teams and Blizzard couldn't find a way to have them play each other once? they don't seem to want to do anything the traditional way that makes sense but just make up stupid shit as they go along, wouldn't surprise me if the grand finals had some absolute whack job rules/schedule that nobody understands but Blizzards desire to be different is that strong so who knows.

Surely this can't be allowed, does that mean the EU contenders will be flooded with Korean teams if they decide to move to Germany or whatever? this reminds me of the farcical bullshit you see in olympics when you have Koreans "representing" Hungary and Russia just to get a spot, I know Koreans are good but this is taking the piss surely.

So having the 4 best dps throughout the OWL go head-to-head backed up by the 4 best supports and protected by the 4 best tank/flex won't be as good as a popularity contest? might as well invite Loserfuit and Stylosa along with all the other OW personalities to play on stage with the likes of Seagull and xQc in that case. A proper all-star match.

I hope it's not that case here then you will end up with Seagull on the all-star team which will be farcical, it should be decided by people like casters/analysts who hopefully have an unbiased opinion.

Guess it begs the question, who does/should the spot belong to? I mean if you're an organization paying players to play for you should you lose that spot if those guys get a better offer somewhere else and take the spot away meaning you as an org are left with nothing to show for 6 months of support and finances?

Also sucks for the players to play hard out for 6 months and have nothing to show for it.

Not saying the 6 months is related to this particular example it's just that, an example. Personally I think the org should always keep the spot.

Aye on paper, granted I've not been watching any of the OWL but is Logix still a one trick tracer? this change can free Cwoosh up to dps and have Zappis play tank for a bit and vice versa, while it ain't gonna solve all the problems they have it can still solve some and these guys won't improve overnight shits gonna take time so this is a very positive change even if it ain't the big one they need yet.

Still blows my mind how they didn't pick him and Fragi up right off the bat instead of only getting 1 of them now when in reality it's Fragi they need more.

Isn't Tamou MIA and that mong xQc banned for the rest of stage 1 and wouldn't surprise me if he does other stupid shit and gets banned for the entire season, they have 1 guy in the middle of a mid-life crisis it seems and the other acting like an 11 year old autist which makes him a massive liability so I would say they need another player or so.

Wasn't the main issue with Reinforce that he either over-extended and died or got caught alone and died? I seem to remember him dying more than any other rein when I watched and often felt he was far too aggressive for his own good.

That logic...please tell me that was a joke.

"butted into a conversation" sorry, you mean this isn't how forums work? the public conversation that you somehow think was private enough that nobody could "butt" into? lol, I had as much place entering as anyone and questioned why you considered the game stale and boring and you dragged it out into a shit show talking about a tone of nonsense nobody even mentioned, all you had to do was say why you thought it's stale and boring yet you made a mountain out of a mole hill just to make yourself look smart.

I don't watch CS:GO based on me not being able to memorize every minute detail, that logic makes perfect sense there pal, I watched OW for the first year and watched almost every tournament available yet barely remember shit, some people are good at remembering some ain't but wait, that also means I didn't watch any OW right?

So the fact we had 7 winners in your eyes out of 12 still doesn't make it diverse? "showing a great deal of variety; very different." How is that not diverse? only 1 team has won 2 majors in a row yet that isn't diverse?

"same players" do you actually look at the rosters and not see the new unknown players coming through that didn't exist when CS:GO launched?

Honestly, I wonder why I bother, you have it cemented in your mind that CS is stale and boring yet support a game like OW because it's new, fresh and full of new players and teams? as I said before OW has been mostly dominated outside of Asia by the same few teams, there's been very few LAN events and outside of the OWL most people wouldn't consider the game to be anything other than stale and pretty much dead.

And also, if you think 2018 CSGO is even mildly as interesting as CSGO back in 2015/2016 I don't know what to tell you. CSGO is so stale these days it's actually amazing that it still has all the support it does. >

Do you ever ask yourself why it still has all the support it does and why it still has millions of dollars being pumped into it yearly or are we all just delusional and only you can see sense? you think CS:GO was more interesting in an era that was less diverse yet consider it stale and boring when it's even more diverse with even more LAN events with even more money, how in the fuck does that logic make ANY sense?

I wrote out a big reply and closed the tab by accident so fuck it, you repeat yourself with the same shit and claim I'm talking about money when I'm not and my knowledge of CS:GO when I'm not, let me make it bold for you to understand; I'm questioning your use of the words stale and boring. Understand? I find it incredibly mind blowing how someone can follow a game like OW that for 2 years has been pretty much stale and boring yet call a game like CS:GO stale and boring when it's still as alive as it ever was with major LAN events happening very often.

It baffles the shit out of me, the fact those are the top teams in the top 10 and you just mentioned half of them going through a rough patch doesn't indicate the game is boring is it? the fact there's been 9 different winners out of the last 12 majors doesn't indicate the game is boring and stale does it?

Don't forget how western OW was pretty much dominated by two teams in the first 2 years of OW's life, if THAT isn't boring and stale then fucking shoot me.

You mean me actually watching CS:GO and listening to him and Anders cast for about 2 years isn't enough to base my opinion on? I was watching CS:GO when it was just Anders on his own before Semmler was known and listened to him from the start and up until a year or so ago, just because I base my opinion on his OW casting thus far on 2nd hand opinions doesn't mean I've based every opinion I have on him with the same logic, you honestly think I would come here and say stuff about Semmler based on 2nd hand comments? don't be an idiot.

How many times have you watched Semmler? I will guarantee you all the money in the world I've listened to more of his casts than you ever will.

This guy is just beyond words, is he honestly this mentally challenged or does he just love winding people up this badly? how can you be so fucking brain dead to behave this way when you're in the OWL and a fairly big streamer on Twitch? is he really trying to throw everything away just because he has the mental capacity of an 8 year old.

You tripping balls? where did I mention it being interesting and exciting because of the money involved? if you honestly think a game isn't interesting or exciting when they have as many different LAN events all over the world like this then I honestly have no words for you, I would definitely have to question your definition of the words and ask if you're mentally sane and laugh at the fact you would consider a game like OW interesting and exciting with the almost zero LAN events over the years. So in your mind what results in something being interesting and exciting?

Now I have to question your definition of another term "over-the-hill" which means "old and past one's best." Sure they ain't exactly young but past ones best? NiP ain't as good as they used to be but still hardly what you'd consider over the hill nor can the same be said about VP who find the form when they really want to, FaZe is a new team so wouldn't apply that to them and so are C9 roughly as well as mouz, North and even fnatic.

Out of that entire top 10 the only teams remotely close to being classed as over the hill are VP and NiP.

Again where did I say I watch for the prize pool? hell where did I say I watch CS:GO period? to say you have absolutely no fucking clue what you're talking about is an understatement, the massive hard on of hate you have for CS:GO is worrying while you sit here and defend a game like OW that has done nothing at all since the start of OWL 2 years after release.

Maybe you should get over the jealousy you have for CS:GO and actually read what people post instead of talking utter nonsense and making yourself look even more retarded.

Aye because I'm sure in that scenario Taimou would love to be playing with a bunch of Koreans or some European like Shadowburn would love to be sitting next to 5 Chinese players. These teams had more than enough time to build a team out of what was available there's no excuses, Dallas are shit at the minute because they went for popularity over raw skill and are paying the price.

Talk about one of the best OW teams period going to absolute shit, signing a famous player who hasn't played competitive for so long and then signing probably the most immature player in OW period who gets punished left and right all the while struggling to win even 1 map out of a possible 4, pretty sure they fucked up hardcore with these two popularity signings and now with the drama xQc is bringing into the team is coming back to haunt them.

Say what you want about this time being "mild" it's the fact it's consistently happening which is the main problem, doing 20 small things that constantly bring your team into the spotlight isn't any better than doing 1 big thing.

Not quite sure I get what you#'re trying to say, not quite sure how anyone can consider a game like CS:GO stale when it has new tournaments happening pretty much all the time with at least 4 majors a year and LAN events left right and center but whatever tickles your pickle. I guess that would also make OW stale based on that logic? up until the OWL kicked off that is.

"bunch of washed up burned out pros" there's only a few teams that fit that criteria and even they have won majors so I guess they ain't all that washed up and burned out. When a game is out for 5 years it becomes stale, pretty sure CS was the most popular FPS on the planet for well over 10 years and SC was also one of the most popular game period, the definition of stale is "no longer new and interesting or exciting" and if we go by your logic we can apply that to every single game on the planet and call them all stale after a few years since they are no longer new, right?

I honestly don't think too many people can agree with you regarding CS:GO when it's still massively popular in every aspect, it's obvious you ain't a fan of the game but to call it stale and full of washed up players who only play for the money based on that is some of the most retarded shit I've ever seen.

Coming from someone who has followed a game riddled with staleness for the first two years of its existence is pretty hilarious. Don't sit there and tell me you wouldn't want OW to be swimming in massive LAN events and 4 majors a year like CS:GO has because you'd be talking absolute shit.

Aye, wasn't it like NiP shitting on everyone for ages then fnatic doing the same? I don't actually watch CS:GO but still follow hltv.org for results and news and it does seem more interesting now that there isn't 1 clear favourite for every event unlike back in the day.

Not watched any OWL tbh but from what I'm reading it's the same old Semmler just a new game, I guess it all boils down to what people want ie more professional or more entertainment, personally I like the former hence why I dislike Semmler (in CS at least) was because he was very immature at times and often talked about completely pointless shit just to be funny.

He's always been a marmite character and it seems more people hate him than actually like him, he was part of 2gd studios or whatever it was called years ago before he got into CS and even then there was constant rumours from the house they all shared that nobody liked him which makes the decision to hire him for such a big league even more baffling.

I love how people can come out with such bold statements with absolutely zero evidence to prove it yet anyone that questions it is in the wrong and clearly hates females, what a world we live in.

Not wanting it to succeed out of spite and saying it won't succeed out of facts are two different things, how many of those players saying that are in the OWL as we speak, none? journalists, do you honestly give two shits what any journalist has to say about anything, do you honestly believe they get paid to talk positively about anything?

You basically listened to players who most likely didn't get a spot and journalists who get paid to talk major shit and trigger people into reading articles. Same journalists who had it down as a failure long before they even knew anything remotely important about the league.

Pretty much stating facts that the OWL will be this good and that good and be the best thing since sliced bread before 90% of the information was even public just because YOU wanted it to because YOU love OW is fake positivity and being massively over optimistic, you talked about the league in such glowing terms when you had no information to go by and before you even saw pre-season.

It's fine to really WANT something but you went too far and turned your opinion into a hard belief and if anyone disagreed you called them negative, you're a joke. There's people on this site that wanted OWL to do well yet very few took it as far as you.

Nobody is questioning how great it is, but you don't call something a success after decent figures 3 days into the league do you.

Same way we hate on females because we don't consider them good enough to compete with the men, we are all just sexist haters at the end of the day :)

You trying to tell me the people pumping some 20 million dollars into this league deemed 50k viewers across NA, Asia and Europe a success, you for real? "in most eyes" like who, nobodies like you? don't sit there and tell me all the major players involved in OWL consider 50k a success, these guys didn't make all the millions and billions they did with these laughably low expectations.

I'm not disagreeing with anything about a good or bad start I'm disagreeing that 50k is a success but oh look, now I'm being over pessimistic when someone like you acting liked 50k viewers is a massive success isn't being overly optimistic.

He does have a point though, unless you speak about OWL positively you get down voted and called negative yet it's perfectly fine to be extremely optimistic and overly positive.

We are not the same person even if you have a hard time believing that there are people who disagree with you and are actually not afraid to speak the truth regardless of how negative or positive it us, then again it's people like you who are scared of the negatives that force people into giving false positives just to make you happy.

People like you are clear hypocrites who only want people around that follow your opinion and it's pathetic mate, this 7 year old nursery attitude on this site is embarrassing and a lot of the people here could do with growing up.

I think that quote from Mochi is just the typical bullshit regarding this subject that claim women ARE good enough to compete with men yet throughout the history of e-sports across any major title has never once been proven, anyone can say they ARE good enough but that means nothing, people say the same about female CS teams yet chance after chance they fail to prove that point.

I find it mind blowing to come out with the nonsense that there are females good enough but the league doesn't want them, again claiming they are good enough when in reality they ain't, unfortunately people are very much in denial about a lot of things in life and this being one of them but history of e-sports will show you who is wrong and who is right.

He has a point, unless one goes through the necessary operations you can't just class yourself as a different gender and expect to be treated like it or I might as well turn myself into a female tomorrow so I can wander around the gym locker rooms and check out the naked chicks.

If everyone on Dallas Fuel came out and said they turned trans over the weekend they wouldn't instantly become the first female team in the OWL, he isn't hating on trans people so stop looking for a fight that isn't there.

Sorry but how is that sexist? we live in a world now where we only want equality when it doesn't benefit us and if it does, who cares about equality?

There are female only tournaments for CS, do you think the female CS players talk about equality then? no, yet they talk about it when it doesn't benefit them ie them getting a free pass to big tournaments even though they didn't earn it.

People always look for a reason in something when there isn't any, fact is there is not one good enough female player on the planet who has shown they can compete in OWL and until they do so shouldn't be given an invite just because they are female.

Don't just mention names of female pros in OW, mention them across every major e-sport for the last 10 years and you will have a hard time coming up with a list, is that sexist?

Wouldn't go that far, in order to consider the OWL a "total success" with the money involved it has to have more than that consistently but most important fill out the arenas for the coming seasons, having 200k viewers average with 10% full arenas will be nowhere near a success. The way to get consistently high viewers is to reward people for watching so it makes sense they did this and now have to keep it up.

Have Koreans only been strong for 3 days? haven't they shit all over everyone else in every competition for ages yet? I guess the question was never going to be are Koreans too strong but are the rest of the teams improved enough to match them and sure that won't be answered in 3 days.

I'm not talking about viewership numbers at all and I agree comparing them to anything else after 3 days is nothing short of dumb but I'm more talking about what Pixelfish said; "doesn't need comparisons to everything" is fucking hilarious since everyone else in the thread compared it to Tyler1's numbers yet because remiska defended his numbers everyone hates him for it? it's called hypocrisy.

Yet everyone else compared it to his record? I love how you can compare it to his record if it's positive for OW but if it's negative you can't compare it and are toxic, fucking hilarious.

Not sure if it's being toxic but more him having that really obnoxious personality that very few actually enjoy but that's just a complete guess based on his videos and older Twitch streams.

I think they have to look at it two ways, first making sure the numbers don't decline dramatically and second trying to get them on par with other big e-sports titles because even though you can't exactly compare OW to CS etc you have to remember how much money is being pumped into the OWL compared to any other e-sports and I doubt the guys pumping all the millions in will be happy with sub par viewers just because OW is new, there's no excuse.

It's easy to get carried away after 1 day of like 3 games and come out with nonsense like "Rendering the poor viewership claims silly" because the figures where never going to be based on surges here and there but consistency week in week out so let's not jump to conclusions and talk pish after 1 day.

What western players have been caught doing the same thing?

What's wrong with these Asian players? all I seem to hear about are the Asian players doing something wrong and either getting fined or kicked from the team, it's becoming a more regular occurrence.

Couldn't agree more, ZP and Hex began casting OW during the beta and casted the GG weeklies every weekend even casting both NA and EU which for them being NA wasn't easy and they casted as much as humanly possible so for him to be ignored is a massive low blow even more so with his partner getting the job as well, there's obviously a very good reason they didn't get him.

Glad to see some British folk and I always enjoyed listening to Sideshow talking about OW or casting it but still completely mind blown not to see ZP especially with Hex getting involved, seems they have invited everyone that has casted OW except ZP so would love to know why.

Honestly can't stand Semmler though so whatever match he is casting I won't be watching.

Picture this for a second:

The Seoul spot is full of Americans meaning all the Korean fans have to support Americans for the home games.

The Shanghai spot is full of Koreans meaning all the Chinese fans have to support Koreans for the home games.

Does that not sound fucking ridiculous to you?

Whatever way you look at it this is a bad move, forge that is very vaguely happens in "real sports" because it never has to this scale, this is about common sense and expecting British people to support a full Korean line up lacks any common sense.

Can't even use football as an example here, you never find an English team with 24 Spanish players, them having 10 different nationalities is not even remotely close to what they have done here, you won't find an NFL team consisting of an entire nationality that isn't American do you.

It's even more ridiculous that it's a British team for an American based organization fielding two Korean lineups, nobody should compare this to any sport because nothing like this has ever happened or ever will.

So we judge him really on Contenders where his team finished 2nd and TO2 that had the best European teams in attendance where he finished 4th and the WC playing for Belgium who are in all honestly shit. I can't remember the stats but pretty sure he didn't flop as hard as people like to claim at Contenders and TO2.

People just have massive expectations for players like Logix and unless they destroy everything then they suck on LAN.

How many LANS has he been to? I think people forget that OW hasn't had as many LANS as people think they had and it's a bit hard to compare his performance in the WC playing for a poor Belgium team don't you think?

Give me an example of a professional sport where this happens.

Makes sense to have one in Germany minimum as imo it's the best place for e-sports in Europe based on events and organizations we've had for decades like ESL and the likes so there's no way Blizzard would add more European cities without adding Germany, not sure about Denmark really, sure they provide good e-sports players but it's not somewhere you get big enough events (unless I'm mistaken), I think Blizzard should look at what countries contribute to e-sports in terms of bringing events in and outside of Germany and Poland I can't think of that many.

But at the same time Blizzard will most likely go where the money is and Paris makes sense.

I'm hoping for another two UK based teams so we can start guessing what 24 Koreans will make up both squads then us Brits can take over the Overwatch world with the help of our 36 adopted Korean cousins.

I'm tempted to say some European cities but don't get the feeling Blizzard give two many fucks about Europe and the only reason we have London is most likely because they got pressured into it by Kroenke or whatever but I've always considered Germany to be the biggest place for e-sports in Europe but also not forgetting about Scandinavia so I would hope for a Berlin and Stockholm squad in the future but very much doubt it.

Blizzard will keep OWL mostly NA unless it absolutely blows up all over the world, time will tell.

Really? you don't think the 6 subs will be really enthusiastic about scrimming against the main 6 and helping them prepare for a big OWL match they would much rather be taking part in?

Again though, never heard of any team in the history of e-sports needing in house scrimming, but hey it might kick on and in the future CS:GO will have 24 man rosters so each team can scrim against 3 different teams etc to keep shit safe bruh.

I'm just dying to see how they prepare so many variables with 12 players and still perform at a high level, whoever wins OWL S1 should get millions because they are going through hell to get it.

I agree, never heard of a single e-sports in the history of the sport that have had a team consisting of two teams, not sure if people actually thought it was a good idea or Blizzard just wanted to be different but I find it laughable when 1 team in OWL consists of 2 completely different teams from before OWL. I'm all for having subs for 6 subs? come on man.

The benefit is having someone to scrim against, what other benefits? you have to keep 12 people happy all the time as well as on top form, how do you do that without rotating the main team too much and fucking that up? this is the OWL, everyone wants to play yet only 6 can, nobody can tell me the other 6 are going to be happy as larry and will settle for a cameo appearance here and there that's nonsense.

People might think having a 12 man roster for a 6 player game is fine but give it time and see how salty those 6 get that ain't playing as much and come back here saying 12 is fine, also fail to see how easy it can be tuning tactics to fit 12 different players playing completely different styles to eachother.

I hope these players have 300 IQ to memorize every different strategy for every different map on both defence and offence for every possible 12 man roster variation using multiple heroes because I sure as hell don't.