Rogue’s ‘dominance’

#1

JBZ_tv

Rogue (french Rouge) wasn’t that dominant how everybody sais they were.Yeah they crushed all the way worse teams in the West, apart from Selfless, which series were always extremely close and fun to watch. Additionally they only played Envy once or twice as far as I can remember. At Rumble in April it was ‘close’ on paper, back when Internethulk was still on the team, even though Rouge was clearly better. I don’t remember the second time, if there even was one. They won TakeOver 2 convincingly plus some small online tournaments like Monthly Melee, PIT, and Rumble, but apart from that, they didn’t really ‘achieve’ anything, they got immediately crushed in the group stage of APEX, yes they had a hard group with the two finalists and could have developed in the playoffs, but I don’t think so! Envy’s fourth place in APEX S3 is way more valuable than anything Rouge achieved. (I don’t and never did hate Rogue :D)

#2

Pixelfish

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What are you on

#3

victococoblazin

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they were dominant of NA and eu region,what's your point?

#4

ManuxBaka

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I can't find it but their record was something like 132W/20L during the past 1,5year...

As #3 said they were dominant of the EU and NA region

#5

darkcvc

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Yea they lost in Apex to Lunatic Hai and Kongdoo Panthera they must be just terrible.

All these yellow first places also mean they suck.

https://imgur.com/a/cTMTS

#6

Wayfarer

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They did better with the older lineup before the shuffle imho.

#7

CptAdama

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They just did a 48-6 in 2017, not really dominant, right ?
With 3 looses against (KDP, LH, and Nv).

#8

remiska

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imho if they practiced more against koreans they would have chance in apex
they were winning all the scrims in korea

#12

JBZ_tv

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Then you could also say, if NV had been practicing more against Rogue and hadn’t been in Korea so long, Rogue wouldn’t have won so much. If your only true competitor isn’t there, and you win against Selfless all the time, ....

Imagine Rogue being a Lion, dominating Africa, they can be killed by hyenas, but this rarely happens (Rogue rarely loses), but if they battle a Siberian Tiger or a Polar Bear (SK), things look different, they don’t dominate, they lose most of the time. Selfless would be a Leopard here, NV a Jaguar (slightly stronger than Leopard and a true competitor to Lion, if they actually met in a 1v1). I know that jaguars aren’t from Africa, but Envy didn’t really compete in many American tournaments, so I think it fits quite well.

Scrims don’t matter, if you can’t win the actual game.

#9

JBZ_tv

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Just look at Bayern Munich for example, they dominate the Bundesliga, but there are also other teams like Borussia Dortmund or RedBull Leipzig (Selfless and NV), where it’s close, but right now Bayern sucks in the Champions League, where they don’t dominate, because there are teams like Madrid, Barca, PSG, Spurs, ManU, ... (Lunatic Hai, KDP, AF Blue, Runaway, ...). One could say that Serie A is EU scene.

#23

murasaki

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Madrid? That's a LUL. Bayern have always performed well in the Champions League what are you talking about LMFAO

#10

JBZ_tv

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I don’t say they sucked, but dominating way worse teams isn’t really ‘true dominating’ (in my opinion) (of course it can be considered dominating, but just at a certain scene (western)). To me true domination is consistently beating the best teams in the world.

EDIT:
I think dominating is consistently winning against teams, which are kind of the same caliber.

#11

CptAdama

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Nobody ever say they dominating the World scene, only the West, and that's true ...

#13

JBZ_tv

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Situation in the US:
Rogue = Patriots,
Everybody else = Cleveland Browns,
Selfless = Falcons (if you take the last Superbowl)

I think dominating is consistently winning against teams, which are kind of the same caliber, not just owning the Browns.

Imagine if Rogue hadn’t gone to the US, then Selfless would have won most of what Rogue won and everybody would have said ‘Selfless is dominating’. What I want to say is that the US scene was just weak.

#18

darkcvc

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That is a terrible comparison. You are saying every other NA/EU team for the last 16 months has been the worst team in the league except Selfless?

#14

JBZ_tv

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Let’s say it was just easy for Rogue to dominate in the Western scene due to lack of competition, whereas in Korea competition is much higher, the field is much more stacked and balanced, that a domination like Rogue had wouldn’t be possible.

Let’s say NV would go to South America and completely their scene, of course it’s dominating, but with no real competitor, it’s easy for them.

That’s basically what Rogue did, coming to America and owning US teams.

It’s like a fight between an adult and a child, of course the adult dominates.

#19

penda

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So you agree that Rogue was a dominant team? No one is saying they were the best team in the world, just in he west.

#15

Skendice

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Alright, you are creating some pretty difficult and unnecessary analogies here. Let's make this clear: Rogue was amazing in the dive meta. There is no doubt in my mind they were stronger than the older version of Envy. This is before Envy got used to playing with Effect.

Rogue was insanely good at dive. According to many sources, all top Korean teams were being annihilated in scrims. Meta slightly shifted, Koreans analysed the shit out of Rogue, Rogue underperformed. Those 3 factors imo caused the losses for Rogue. You have to realise that playing in Korea is absolutely shit for western players. Its mentally exhausting.

I'd pay good money to see Rogue at peak performance against LH/KDP in a more suitable environment (e.g. short LAN/LAN in America).

#16

JBZ_tv

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you’re right, well said

#17

Skendice

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It's hard to say how things would have gone in a better setting. Rogue could have very well been the strongest team in the world for a while. We will never know for sure though.

#20

KuroiRyuu9625

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Pretty much it in a nutshell. It was pretty annoying to see all the people shitting on Rogue for losing to the eventual finalists of the tournament, on top of those teams being seriously stacked at the time in comparison to all the others.

In the end what killed Rogue was a meta shift and them not having the tools to fully adjust mixed in with some logistical errors that could and should have been avoided. Hopefully the boys that didn't get in specially will get their chance to shine later on in the season or in the next one.

The only player I'm not convinced will get in is NiCo given his current proficiency at the flex tank role, even though he's gotten much better at it over time.

#22

ThisOldDog

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Um, hello? World cup? France VS South Korea if it happens. Probably the closest thing to what you want.

#25

KuroiRyuu9625

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Not quite, D.Va is still a force to be reckoned with in the right hands and Rogue don't have that. The optimal situation to really measure how "good" Rogue was at their peak would be a relatively short LAN when triple DPS was still strong.

I personally believe teams like LH or KDP at the time would have been able to figure them out given at least two games but to a lesser extent than they did with a full two weeks of play plus how ever long they had been scrimming in Korea for.

Still looking forward to seeing how they do with the current Mercy meta and if they'll try to run triple DPS in it since tanks are more valuable rez targets in general.

#21

ThisOldDog

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Rouge had issues, they were the best in NA, yes, they won almost every game, but their play was bad, compared to the Koreans who played the game "correctly". The ult coordination was poor, they'd invest ults into losing fights, it was mostly evident with Dragonblades and Trances. They didn't have a good offtank, the only reason they did well was because they figured out how to run a correct dive, and they had so much mechanical skill, no one could compete, but they had many issues, it's just no one in NA decided to take the time and figure out how to beat them.

But when they went over to Korea, they got steamrolled because they weren't a team. Koreans value team play and having a team be worth more then just the sum of their parts, but Rouge were the opposite, so when they went over to Korea, teams disected them, they abused the fact that they didn't have a good offtank. So they killed the supports easily, while the tanks protected and pealed for their own supports and shut down anyone who tryed to do anything.

Rogue could only run 1 comp so they were very one dimensional. The koreans only needed to counter only one comp, and when they did, every team without a good offtank fell, Rouge, IMT, Renegades, Eunited, and probably more. Even though that is my opinion, Rogue weren't in the best of circumstances, they were shipped to a different country, stuffed in hotel rooms and forced to play well in a glass box. Pair that with the weak competition in NA and you have recipe for disaster.

So, to sum it up, Rogue lost because they didn't play like a team, their ultimate coordination and usage was wasteful and not planned throughly, they didn't have a good offtank and they could only play 1 comp, so koreans exploited these flaws and rolled them in APEX. After that they couldn't get back on the feet and 3 dps was much less viable after the koreans showed how to counter it.

#26

KuroiRyuu9625

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Totally correct. They had more individual skill than a number of the teams they faced in their run and were often able to clutch out situations but hit the brick wall that is Korean analysis. That ring specially true when the Koreans have so much time to pick apart their play and really focus on their weaknesses.

I don't think either of the western teams would have made it out of that group, with Envy only hitting their stride later in the tournament.

Nonetheless, imo they were fun to watch, mostly because of the high risk high reward nature of the comp they ran.

#24

zero

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Imagine a Lion playing on Bayern Munich having a swordbattle with a Polar Bear currently playing for the Falcons.

I don't understand why people create threads like these. You are just trying to say things everybody knows in a negative way.

#27

JBZ

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Negative way? I’m just saying how things were (no competition, ..). I’m not hating on Rogue, I loved seeing them play, plus I think the analogies should be very clear.